Tulpa.info - metaphysics

And moderate it

That's Hide-Meta lol (edited)

12:05 AM

that exists

Then enforce it.

They don't ban people from just meta

12:06 AM

It's opt-in

That's what I'm suggesting, to ban people from just meta (edited)

Lol if they don't have the sense of self-preservation to mute or hide the channel of their own volition, they can't be expected to be modded for just one channel

12:07 AM

I'm sure mods and others will have said "why don't you just hide this channel" to them, too

Are you here to defend these people or to help try to solve the problem?

12:07 AM

Like what kind of argument even is that

MarkdownContext { Depth = 1 }

"If they don't hide this channel then we shouldn't moderate them for what they say here"?

No, the point is that they were not forced to look at it in any sense, even if they got a ding and a little red dot

Yes but they did eitherway and were an ass about it

Even if people talk about silly ghosts and magic here, you can't say "mods, don't ban me from the whole server, only from this channel- those people were so stupid, I just can't help myself but act like an ass!"

How the fuck is "they weren't forced to being here" justifying being an ass?

???

JGC

Even if people talk about silly ghosts and magic here, you can't say "mods, don't ban me from the whole server, only from this channel- those people were so stupid, I just can't help myself but act like an ass!"

It is LITERALLY against server rules.

What lol?

#old-rules says religious discrimination is against the rules

I think we might have gotten mixed up

12:10 AM

Yes, exactly People should not get banned from just #meta If someone acts like an ass in #meta, they're acting like an ass in the server

12:10 AM

And I'm sure mods would bring up, "Hey, why don't you mute/hide meta?" before taking stronger actions

I don't think they'd ban a large part of the community but if they do sure, it works.

JGC

It's worth noting that in the history of tulpamancy, the metaphysical school of thought greatly predates psychological ideas. This is something that's kinda lost in recent years, and it's also why the slogan/motto of tulpa.info is "For Science!" Pleeb, Lumi, or anyone who's been around for that general amount of time could probably give a much better history lesson- I've only been around since late 2018, and this is stuff I just learned FROM people like Pleeb and Lumi and other oldfrens. Metaphysics, in this usage, also doesn't just mean "philosophy of reality." Not to mess with a dead horse topic, but Zen, and Shake in the past, and probably Proxi too, and others from even prior, sometimes use #metaphysics to shill their metaphysic philosophy systems. This IS the right place for that, but ORIGINALLY the intentions of #metaphysics was really to contain MAGICAL discussion, but the community saying "my tulpa is a magical soul entity" really didn't exactly want to be called wizards or anything like that- and the discussion was always more about "What is real, anyway?" and that's how the term "metaphysical" became used for the more magical and older lines of tulpamancy. Metaphysics is cordoned off from the rest of the forum/IRC because people of the metaphysical (read: magical) school of thought were shitting up discussions by bringing their magical beliefs into them. "Are tulpas people?" "Yes because they have souls." That's the type of person who the metaphysics side is for- to prevent the discussion from being derailed left and right by "I don't believe your religion is true." It makes it weird when #metaphysics is full of atheists mostly nowadays lol.

This. I expected to talk chaos magick and stuff like Egregores here, not deal with shallow anti Christian debate

^ same

1:28 AM

(chaos magick <3 )

What IS chaos magick and why does it get the k

JGC

What IS chaos magick and why does it get the k

Let's start with the easy part first, the k. Basically, a good few years back people said that things were getting a bit confusing and hard to distinguish between magic (religion), magic (fiction) and magic (performance). So to help distinguish between stage magic and fiction magic they added the k. This was before the internet so it didn't got extremely widespread so not everyone uses the k

1:55 AM

Then some authors decided to use the k on their fictional stories and it's just a mess now.

1:56 AM

Now, the more complicated part, the "chaos". Basically, one of the main ideas of chaos magick is that there's no natural order; (originally) there was no God, there's no Mother Nature or anything like that that created and planned the universe

1:57 AM

The main idea of chaos magick (or at least what I understand of it, occultist lingo is terribly inconsistent) is that it's the belief in things that make them real. So religions like Christianity or Buddhism or w/e start not not being true but by people believing in them it becomes true

1:57 AM

So originally no one created the universe, then came the christians and then God made the universe and then came the renaissance and it went to the big bang instead.

1:59 AM

It explains pretty neatly a bunch of stuff like why every religion claims to be correct (because they are), why magic/occultism/religion is unprovable to the general population (because the overarching belief, even among the religious, is that it's unprovable), etc.

1:59 AM

So that's what chaos magick is and why it has the k'. @JGC

1:59 AM

Feel free to ask any questions, by the way'

I don't think that you need chaos magic to explain those things. every religion claims to be correct because people believe that it is correct, sure, but they could just be wrong. and people didn't just start believing in the big bang for no reason; they used the scientific method, which requires evidence to come before conclusion. how could they conclude upon the big bang through the scientific method if that were true? wouldn't they just end up finding that the evidence points towards an already existing belief?

Breloomancer

I don't think that you need chaos magic to explain those things. every religion claims to be correct because people believe that it is correct, sure, but they could just be wrong. and people didn't just start believing in the big bang for no reason; they used the scientific method, which requires evidence to come before conclusion. how could they conclude upon the big bang through the scientific method if that were true? wouldn't they just end up finding that the evidence points towards an already existing belief?

About the big bang: it's less so they believed "the universe started with a bang" but more so that "the start of the universe can be explained with science"

but that still raises the question, why did they conclude upon the big bang in particular?

¯\(ツ)\/¯

2:11 AM

Probably just turned out that way; there needed to be some rational explanation and that fits the bill, no particular reason why

2:12 AM

Remember the "chaos" part in chaos magick; there's no God or natural way to say "it should be an explosion rather than something else", it just turned out to be this way for some reason

2:13 AM

Probably they just were discussing possibilities, someone said "the universe started with a bang" and people liked and spread the idea enough to have it be that way

2:14 AM

Could a different theory have catched on and the universe then have a different origin? Yeah, possibly. We just ended up with the bang one for no reason in particular.

JGC

What IS chaos magick and why does it get the k

Magick is the form you will here in most occult circles, as the other guy said it was a separator between fiction and real occult materials, then idiot writers hijacked it.

~~At least the stage magicians were nice about it. Based stage magicians.~~

so why would belief have special properties on the universe? is it just human belief, or do animals also have this ability? could sufficiently advanced computer program change the world through belief? and if so, how advanced would it have to be?

I'll be honest I have no idea why belief works. I don't really have a neat explanation for that; I just don't know.

2:23 AM

About animals or computers, I think it comes down to "Well, what would the humans believe? Do they think the animals/machines can?". We probably got it limited to us because we were the only ones to get smart enough for organized religion to arize.

2:24 AM

So if we go to like the 22th century or smthin' and there's machine rights movement or w/e and people's view on them are that they are close enough for it to work then yeah it'd probably work

2:25 AM

Probably', it depends on how society is really

what if you got everyone to believe that belief didn't have any effect on reality? would chaos magic cease to exist?

Maybe? It's a possibility. It's commonly accepted that the rize in science and atheism n such has made religions unprovable and occultism harder to have practical visible effects so there is an argument to be said that it can nullify itself

2:28 AM

If it does come to "everyone is atheist nobody believes it exist" I genuinely don't know what would happen if someone got mad and made a religion and convinced people to believe in it; I don't know if it'd come back to make that religion real or if it's gone for good

2:30 AM

When it comes to these meta aspects of it there's a ton that we just don't know. These were some great questions and I'd also love to know the answers but I don't have them, sorry'.

so how did people come to the conclusions that they did come to about chaos magic?

I'm not too well-versed in occultism history but from what I know people asked themselves, "why does every religion claim them to be right and the others to be fake?". Some (like the Wiccan) reached the conclusion they're all different manifestations or interpretations of the same phenomena. The people that then would make chaos magick noticed that the only thing that all religions share is that people believe in them

2:36 AM

Plus this was ~17th century iirc, so the renaissance was already long gone. If the universe was entirely explainable by science surely beliefs in religion n such would have died by then, at least in their view'

huh. that's putting a lot of faith in humanity's ability to distinguish truth from false

Something to note is that, in this framework, religions come from the false

2:37 AM

So the first humans first said "the sun is a god" and then the sun would be a god, not the other way around

2:38 AM

But yeah, the thought "surely it'd have died down by now if it was false" is a shakey argument indeed

2:39 AM

~~Let's not get into politics here but you can point some examples~~

how come people can be surprised, if reality changes to fit their expectations?

2 reasons and a side-note. First reason is that the collective beliefs generally trump that of the personal. The second and more interesting one is that when someone gives you a gift for exame you may be hoping to get a bicycle for example but you don't believe for a fact you're getting it; you hope you're getting it but know it's not guarantee

2:44 AM

The side-note is that you're not entirely wrong. A popular belief regarding this is that retroactive change is possible. So you believe in the 22th of December that you can use occultism to influence your friend to buy a bike for you for christmas, for example

2:44 AM

So you'd do that and instead of the present he bought on the 21st be magically transformed into a bike instead of buying a shirt he bought you a bike back then

what does collective belief mean exactly? would a system of 100 tulpas have the same belief power as 100 singlets?

~~I'll be honest part of the reason I joined this server was to know that answer hah~~

1

2:46 AM

It is something I don't know. Maaaaybe? At that point it depends on the system. If they're an atheist for example it might not really change anything due to their belief, if they're into occultism it might have a greater impact.

Fazzie

~~I'll be honest part of the reason I joined this server was to know that answer hah~~

As in to discuss it n such ~~no unethical tulpa experiments today sadly~~

2:48 AM

Eitherway - collective belief is basically the collective unconscious, a term coined by Carl Yung, a sociologist n such

2:48 AM

Basically, it's the common things that a society believes in / expects. So stuff like "you should wear clothes out in public", "you shouldn't kill people", etc.

I am somewhat familiar with yung

Psychology and sociology normally focus on the what the collective consciousness thinks you should or shouldn't do, in the moral values n such. Chaos magick instead focuses on what the collective consciousness believes in, rather than what it thinks is right or wrong.

2:50 AM

The collective consciousness may think that murder is wrong but it also believes that murderers exist too so it's not impossible to kill, for a non-occultism example.

2:51 AM

The moral value is irrelevant to chaos magick, only if it thinks it exists & is true or not.

its Jung ...

It sounds like chaos magik kind of devolves into the 'Brain in a Jar' thought experiment. If belief trumps reality, even causality, then everything is subjective, the search for an objective reality is futile

8:59 AM

Why bother seeking out truth if the physical basis for things to be true does not exist?

Fazzie

So you'd do that and instead of the present he bought on the 21st be magically transformed into a bike instead of buying a shirt he bought you a bike back then

Because here your friend might say "hey, I got you a shirt!" And he would have been telling the truth, except that through your belief you made that into a lie

m a g i c k s

9:51 AM

I've been watching "the Midnight Gospel" together with Mat ,and the 3rd episode was about "Ceremonial Magic"

9:52 AM

Crowley, some XIXth and XXth century movements

9:52 AM

etc.

9:52 AM

Is that related to Chaos Magic and Modern Tulpamancy in some way?

9:57 AM

~~i'm getting some flashbacks every time i see any robed cultists...~~ Cool garb btw

I'm interested in learning more about chaos magick. I don't agree with its premise, but I have heard some really neat ideas I want to translate into tulpamancy and I wonder if I could invent new tulpamancy doing that.

~~I'll be honest part of the reason I joined this server was to know that answer hah~~

I don't know if it would matter what the volume of any collective opinion is, just if it is the collective opinion or not. In the end, a system is a system, and all people feed into one collective consciousnesses. If life is ruled by the collective consciousness, then the overall actions of all of humanity will either be inconsistent or consistent with your beliefs.

3:09 PM

A very uncommon belief could be the driving force of a major decision, and 80 headmates or even 800,000 singlets believing the same thing doesn't really matter if it has no greater effect on the world (edited)

Makes sense'; I like that idea, that it only works when you spread around the idea n such rather than only inside the system. Also, small thing: There's the overarching collective consciousness (wear clothes, get a job, etc) but there are smaller overlapping ones - for example in a "hardcore gamer" discord server (don't play Fortnite, play PUBG etc) is a collective consciousness, a smaller one but one indeed. This is relevant for chaos magick because it means different beliefs (and thus realities) for different social circles.

3:46 PM

So something that chaos magick permits is for you to just kinda do whatever you want really; so you can be a christian and go to church n such and have God protect you (as you're in that social circle) and you can also be going to Wiccan groups and learn witchcraft n such and have these tools (as you're also in that social circle). I personally haven't added any mixing like that into my toolset but it is something that is possible.

3:47 PM

(it also means that in general occultism discord servers chaos magick is good for bridging gaps between people of different religions, it's p neat)

I think that's really nice. I never bothered to explore religion, if I am destined to become a member of any religion I like the idea of being a chaos magician the most. The only problem is I don't believe my opinions can influence others beyond having good social skills

4:04 PM

I can't cause the grass to turn purple no matter how hard I believe (well, I could impose purple grass, but that's different)

4:04 PM

Unless I fulfill a self-fulfilling prophecy and dye the grass purple somehow (edited)

The way it normally goes is that, due to the "magic doesn't exist" / "things don't pop out of nowhere" belief that is extremely ingrained in our society it can't really manifest that way. So if you want a bicycle, for example, believing really hard to get one won't cause one to just pop up near your house but rather for a friend to gift you one or for an ad for a 90% discout bike appear or smthing' along those lines.

4:08 PM

It's definitely not the prettiest and it has given me my fair share of "Am I just linking unrelated points or is it legit" self-doubts but I can live with it. That's for physical stuff, that is. If you're talking about stuff like spirits or energy or those more metaphysical stuff then the world's your oyster.

4:09 PM

Just not on the physical', there it's p hard to make provable stuff due to "religion is unprovable".